Thoughts on Maths: Doing It In Hungary
I’ll admit it: The only reason I watched this video in the first place was because I enjoy listening to foreign languages, especially ones I don’t speak. While waiting for the video to load, this statement from the video synopsis caught my attention: “The Hungarian approach has informed … English thinking in [teaching primary mathematics], and Hungarian pupils come high in the international rankings.”
A lot of what I saw in the video reminded me of the way I was taught mathematics in elementary school: Our desks were arranged in rows, my teachers always taught in a whole-class setting, and we frequently played “Who’s the fastest?”, drill-type games. A few things, however, seemed much different. For one, I do not think my fourth grade teacher would have been able to mentally generate an alternating sequence of numbers (“this increase[d] by sixteen, and this decrease[d] by nine”) beginning anywhere - certainly not from an odd, three-digit number.
As you discovered from this week’s textbook readings, mathematics instruction in the United States has changed a lot over the last ten-to-fifteen years. Are we headed toward or away from a system like that in Hungary? What are your feelings about this? Furthermore, I find it interesting that policy makers in the U.K. are modeling instructional activities after those found in Hungary. After all, according to this “Highlights from TIMSS” document, by the final year of secondary school, Hungarian students are performing below the international average (p. 7) . (They ranked higher when comparing the achievement of eighth-graders, but not in the top ten (See p. 4).) Interestingly, in one recent study (2003), which tested the “real world” math skills of fifteen-year-olds in forty-one countries, Hungary ranked only slightly higher than the United States.
What do think? How should we react to studies such as the TIMSS, or PISA? What value is there in our comparing ourselves to other countries? Should we model our system of education after that found in the top-performing countries? Why would or wouldn’t this work?
I got from the reading above that we are one of the lowest ranked world in math skills. If this is true, why are we? Why are our teachers not teaching what the students need to know? Why not make math a priority like they do english or science? The requirements for mathematics is what needs to change, I think.
Tiffany Segers
January 21, 2008
Other counteries push mathematics more than the United States. They expect their students to be at a higher level and perform better. I think the United States does not put enough emphasis on mathematics. Most jobs in other countries are geared towards math. Maybe that is the reason they push harder. Does Hungary have longer school weeks than the US? I think some countries like Japan go to school six days a week. If they have longer hours or more days of school than us, of course they can learn more!
Brandi Harbour
January 22, 2008
I never thought of it that way Brandi. And as a matter of fact you are right. I know this guy from Korea, he was an exchange student. He told me they went to school from real early in the morning to real late at night. And if I remember correctly they only get a month out of school all year long.
Tiffany Segers
January 22, 2008
I’m not sure about the length of time they spend in school, but one thing I did notice is they do not have standardized testing at the elementary level. I think our children would benefit from this because they would have more time to learn math and have fun doing it instead of the drill and kill method we have today. The use of manipulative objects is an awesome way to get childrens attention and keep it. I understand the need for testing, but not to the extreme that our children are exposed to. My daughter is in the third grade, and they started preparing for testing the second week of school.
Angel Cabe
January 22, 2008
The studies that are done to compare our progress are beneficial ones. If not for that then we would not know how well we are doing and in what areas we need to improve. Comparing ourselves to other countries is a great idea! We may be able to get tips on how to improve the way we do things or the amount of time we actually spend on certain topics.This also may push educators to improve what they are not doing so well on. Hungarians seem to do more hands on with their teachings and may spend more time on math than we actually do. I observed a first grade class and they also did hands-on math but were only instructed to stay on that activity for 15 minutes. They really push math on the kids too hard and do not give them time to actually learn it.
tls1995
January 22, 2008
I feel that the teaching of the proper mathematical language beginning in kindergarten is an added advantage over our simplistic terms used in American kindergarten classrooms. The Hungarian student’s understanding was amazing, each year built upon the previous year with an obvious progression of knowledge. Using familiar and seasonal objects to hold student’s interest all year long was also an important tool in helping them “see” the math lesssons.
Kelley Hale
January 23, 2008
I agree with Angel’s comment on standardize testing so much time and energy is spent teaching the test that many things are being over looked. I have had teachers tell me that didn’t agree with some of the methods of doing math problems but, had to teach it that way because that is how it had to be done on the test.
Hollie Mullins
January 23, 2008
Angel and Kelly bring up good points. I feel that the “drill and kill” method of teaching that Angel mentioned for standardized testing really drags our kids down. I don’t think they learn as much as they could if they weren’t so stressed about it.
What Kelley said about the Hungarian students learning being built on what they were taught the previous year was interesting. I think too often our children just forget what was taught the year before because their interests aren’t being held for a long period of time.
I liked how the teacher in one classroom used real objects ( the acorns) and then showed how it could work with other things so that the students really could “see” the math instead of just visualizing it in their heads.
I also found it interesting that the Hungarian K students worked mainly on building their “learning muscles” and here in the United States our Kindergarten students are expected to know so much more like how to count ( and write) up to 100 by the time they are through. I wonder if we focused more on developing those “learning muscles” if our students would be more focused on the task at hand?
mom22boys
January 23, 2008
I think that our children today need to be taught some of the lessons that they teach in hungary. I was really impressed with how well the children in year 2 could tell their odd numbers from their even numbers. I think that they need more visual aides in school today such as seasonal items like the acorns and color blocks to keep the children interested in learning how to add and subtract. I did not learn roman numerals until I was in the eigth grade those children in hungary was learning thim in the 4 year. I think that our children need to learn how to solve problems with higher numbers and different numbers such as roman numerals.
Melarry Wood
January 23, 2008
I really think that United States schools needs to spend more time in math. I think that schools do not need to give student in pre-k through second grade a standard test. If they only took that time they spend to prepared for the test and put it in during math time I think our students would be better off. Teacher also need to make math fun for the students instead of just drilling it into there heads.It was amazing that there students could tell there odd and even number apart in the second year. I found that it was shocking that they learned there roman numbers in there fourth year I did not learn mine until high school.
njd2005
January 23, 2008
The United States needs to spend more time teaching math. I feel that we don’t need standard testing in elementary. I have had 10 children already finish school or in school now and only 4 have been above average in math. Most of my children hated math. They said because it is hard and is not fun. If they made it fun or made a game out of it most children would like it more. The movie shows how the teacher makes math fun.
cmh022007
January 24, 2008
Wow! I wish I would of went to a Hungarian school and learned the basis of mathematics from one of their teachers. These ladies seem to really know how to get the subject matter across to their students in a fun and educational approach. I really liked the clapping/pounding approach to figuring out a number. I think I will use this tool when I start teaching. Mathematics is so very important, and if our kids cant grasp it from the beginning I feel like they will never really understand it once they get to higher levels of math. Every step in a mathematics problem is so important, and to not be able to grasp the concept could cause problems later.
rmt06
January 25, 2008
I also agree that because there is so much stress caused by the standardized testing for both teachers and students that a lot of the basic, but necessary material is skipped over in order for the teachers to teach what they know will be on those test. I believe most students learn material on the basis of, “I just have to remember this until after the test” and thats exactly what happens. Instead of doing this I think using the actvities the hungarians used would not only help the students become more interested in math but also allow them to remember the material and use it as building blocks for the years following.
smile0304
February 21, 2008
I definatly think we need to compare our ways to other ways in the world, I mean, we do in every other aspect(our different economies first came to mind). I thought the manipulitvies used in the video were very neat. The teacher used alot of reflection in their studys. I attended school in the united kingdom in kindergarden/ 1st grade. When I came to the United States I was ahead of the students in my class. I cant remember the math, but as far as english, we had jounals and had to do video summarys! The students in my american class could barely write. I know that America is far behind in math. I dont know why though. The video focused on the fact that the younger children are taught to use pencils earlier. Which is something I realized myself out of the country. I have a 2nd grader who is just now learning what they are teaching in this video. Last year she was learning how to draw the numbers. Also, I noticed how much hands on activity they used in the video. I dont think that the US puts that much focus on math alone, or we should start teaching students the basics earlier. If a 7 month old can learn sign language, that should show us its NEVER to early to start teaching math concepts!
xanneb
March 17, 2008
I do not think people should put such emphasis on test such as the TIMSS or PISA. Hungarian and the United States are teaching the same basic things, but in different ways and speeds. I am sure each method of teaching has its ups and downs.
Here in the U.S. we teach things very fast. This can be beneficial to our children because we live in a fast paced society. It also helps to ensure they are presented with all the knowledge they need before college or entering the “real world”. This type of learning also keeps young minds open for creativity and cognitive learning. On the other hand many children miss things or do not completely grasp concepts due to the up-beat methods.
In Hungary learning is taken at a slow pace to ensure that children master concepts. This type of education may be slower than others, but this way there are not any children left behind. I think a down side to this method of teaching would be the children becoming bored. This would cause them to loose interest in learning, cause less creativity, and bored children tend to misbehave.
I think overall the U.S. should not try to change its entire system of education, but just make a few alteration. We could slow down the pace a little bit, but for the most part our education system has been effective.
burns18286
August 19, 2008
We should not react harshly or “take to heart” the TIMSS or PISA studies. A lot of the countries that were studied go to school several weeks to months longer than students in the United States. Also, some of the studies were completed before there were specific degrees that the teacher had to have to teach the class. Before, a teacher was hired to teach mathematics when he/she was an English major. Now, the teachers that are hired actually are qualified to teach the class that they are hired to teach thanks to the “highly qualified teachers” that we now hire in our school systems.
We should never compare our country’s students or teachers to the students or teachers from other countries. Our number systems are different along with everything else down to the languages in most cases. We often attend school at different times or longer times than other countries as I stated before. It is not appropriate to compare our system to that of other countries.
We should not necessarily model our system of education after other countries. We might find ideas that will help some teachers find a new way to teach, but in most cases, these teachers would not use the ideas. Some teachers would love to have the extra help, while others would take offense to the extra help. With this in mind, we should not model our system of education after other countries. We should merely use their ideas if deemed necessary. This will work if the teacher is open to new ideas or help from others. This will also work if the teacher does not want ideas or help from others if they are not forced to take the ideas. This will not work is the teacher is forced to take ideas that he/she does not want.
I am glad to see that our teachers are more qualified for what they teach now. I am also always open to any ideas thrown my way.
deedowdy
August 19, 2008
I thought the video was very informative. I thought it was very interesting the way that the students were all involved in the learning process. It is true that other countries push mathematics and that we are slipping below all other countries. I think if we did try some of the teaching practices on the video, we would start to excel again. If we involve the students in the processes, I think they will be more inclined to learn and even help others understand. What does their curriculum consist of? Is it basically Math since they only go half days? I did like they have an after school program for those who are wanting help with any issues they may be having with math.
hughes6871
August 21, 2008
The use of manipulatives in young children (preschool age) is being emphasized at workshops throughout Arkansas at this time. I attended these INDEX classes a couple of years ago and can see where it would be beneficial to work/play in this manor. Watching the video of how interractive the Hungarian children are with the instructor is very similar to what I have seen in the classroom, but it seems like the Hungarians don’t move as quickly through the mathematical concepts as in this country. Maybe there could be a middle area of both building basic concepts and mathematical progression.
weaver17536
August 22, 2008
I believe any standardized test should be used as a guide and nothing more. These tests are a good way to see what students may need to improve on or what they have missed on an individual basis. The tests are also good to see how the school itself might need to adjust some things to better help the child. The tests have turned into something to be dreaded by all. Teaching to the test in order to save their jobs, really hinders teachers from teaching all the things the students need. It is hard to compare all countries based on the test alone. Comparisons of any sort should take everything into consideration. We should take ideas from other countries, if the idea is a better one. We have to want the best for our children and we should be open to receiving suggestions from others.
lockhart8292
August 24, 2008
Personally, I thought that this video was extremely informative. I had never seen or been exposed to anything that dealt with how other countries learn. While watching the video I noticed that Hungarian elementary classes were the equivalent to a year behind the United States. I honestly believe that this extra year Hungary gives its students is an awesome experience. In fact, as a young child, around the age of 4, I was send to a school before preschool. All I remember learning or doing at my time there was playing games. So after watching this video, I contacted my mother, who then explained to me some of the work that I had brought home and it was almost the same thing Hungarian students were doing in our equivalent of Kindergarten.
I really enjoyed how the video would show Hungarian school years in a sequence. It really gave me a chance to see how the students are supposed to progress from year to year. I found that Hungarian teacher s actually spends a lot more training time then United States teachers do. It was amazing that they could give the students a problem off the top of their head and go along with it.
In some ways I believe that the United States if headed into a system of elementary learning that is similar to that in Hungary. Simply because over the past ten to fifteen years, teachers are being encourage to learn more about the methods and concepts behind mathematics, such as what was present in the Hungarian teachers. Teachers in the United States are also being encouraged to use more manipulatives in their teaching. I do believe that Hungarian teachers put in more training and preparation. I also believe that they have a greater understanding for what is expected of them.
I think that as far as the TIMSS and PISA go, the United Sates should take these into consideration not only for other countries, but also for themselves. However, I do not think that we should harp on them that much. I think that if the United States could incorporate more of the same elementary aspects Hungary was, and was also keeping our middle school and high school levels the same; we could be an even more successful and intelligent country.
sam5712
August 24, 2008
I really enjoyed watching this video. I found it to be very knowledgable. I think that the Hungarian mathematical teaching methods are very interesting. The students seemed very eager to learn and to answer questions that the teacher presented. I think that standardized testing is a good way to make sure that are students aren’t falling behind, but I don’t necessarily agree with comparing countries against one another because our general upbringings are totally different. I would like to see us use some of these methods of teaching rather than trying to prepare our students for the benchmarks and only teaching to prepare to make high scores on those particular tests. I feel that students get more out of interactive learning and I hope to be able to use those methods in my classroom someday!
mccormick2857
August 25, 2008
I thought the most interesting thing was how they taught them how to hold the pencil and to strenghten the muscles in their hands and arms before they ever required them to start wrting. The way they teach is very interesting. I thought their interaction with the whole classroom instead of putting them in groups was not only neat but helpful to the whole class. I agree that children should have some type of schooling before they start kindergarten. It helps them with their communicaiton skills as well as sharing. It gives them a chance to get into a routine instead of throwing them into it.
avila15745
August 28, 2008
I was fascinated by both the video and my classmates’ comments. I believe the teaching methods employed in the video were brilliant. The use of manipulatives long before the use of written math opened my eyes to some very basic shortcomings in my own primary math education. I also have a unique perspective on this concrete, hands on method of teaching children to think logically, mathematically. My son, who is autistic, has a great deal of trouble with written math. He is also incapable of completing a math problem if there is a digit (8) and a spelled number (eight) on the same problem. I really think this problem or blockage, you might say, might be caused, in part, by the fact that he was expected to write numbers and do written math before he could even read. It’s like he doesn’t fully grasp the concept of “eight”. because he was writing the number before he new what it was…and that was good enough for his teacher. I think the concept of “developing the learning muscles” is again, brilliant. If I understood correctly, what is meant by developing the learning muscles is not just the ability to “see” math in a concrete way, but also allowing young children to develop the muscles in the hand that will present them with less frustration and discomfort when learning to write. Thus allowing them to stay focused on math itself. I don’t think most of us can even remember whether or not our hands hurt when we were learning to hold, and write with a pencil…but I bet they did!
I also agree that our way of using standardized testing is a problem because educators are forced to teach to the test, instead of teaching for understanding. However, I don’t necessarily think the tests are the problem. I think the content of the tests is the problem. There is nothing wrong with standardized testing of students to be sure all children are learning. The problem is that the tests don’t measure this. They measure what we can cram down their throats and have them vomit back up on the test. Rote memory is not understanding and that kind of memory is going to do nothing for our children in the real world where they must compete in an ever more global market, with young adults from other world regions, who are taught to understand math concepts instead of what most of our students do…just barf out what’s been crammed into their short term memory…and then forget it because it makes no sense to them. I am that way too. I can memorize anything. But I can only retain it for so long, unless it has some meaning to me.
It was interesting as well, to see that the Hungarian kids “math muscles” had atrophied to almost the US’s level by the time they were in their middle teens.
audchild
August 31, 2008
Glad to see you guys enjoyed the Teachers’ TV programme I made about Hungarian primary maths teaching! It was aimed at UK maths teachers because our ‘Numeracy Strategy’ was based on the Hungarian approach, with an emphasis on mental maths and understanding mathematical concepts before introducing written methods. When I was there I was struck by the use of manipulatives right through Hungarian primary school, starting in kindergarten, and how long they leave it before introducing written methods. Everything seems to be done a year later than it would be in the UK, when the children seem more ready to grasp things. Another major factor was that Hungarian trainee primary teachers were taught substantial amounts of actual maths as well as how to teach stuff. I don’t about the US, but in the UK a trainee teacher with a university degree can have waved goodbye to maths when they were 16. Not so in Hungary. It does seem to go downhill in secondary school, with traditional teaching methods replacing the imaginative approaches used in primary, to the despair of Hungarian maths experts I spoke to. Anyway, if you liked that, then why not go back to the Teacher’s TV web site at http://www.teachers.tv and have a look at some of the videos we’ve made about innovations in UK maths teaching and maths videos for pupils. [narrow your search for 'maths' 'pupils' etc down the left hand side]
pevans93
September 8, 2008
…and if you do look at any of the UK Teachers TV programmes, do leave a comment on their website!
pevans93
September 10, 2008
I agree that before kindergarten starts children should have some sort of routine that will prepare them. In day care kids go through the same routine every day. It varies from place to place, but they play, get changed, fed, nap. They also learn a little as well. The video showed different ways to teach math. I also agree that math is not as focused on in this country as much as others. Parents could start with more number and counting games at home. I believe learning should not be just necessary, but it needs to be fun. Kids do not want to be talked at, they want to interact, and be a part of the group.
pearce4471
October 4, 2008
After watching the video Doing it in Hungary, I felt that these particular Hungarian teachers must have put much time and effort into planning and implementing their lessons. The way in which the students from each given grade, Kindergarten through Fourth year, responded to the teacher’s questions and activities with enthusiastic respect to turn taking, and their proper usage of the language of mathematics was admirable. I felt each teacher demonstrated great command of her classroom and had mastery of the concepts that she was trying to teach. The students in the Kindergarten classroom were working on developing their kinesthetic skills through coloring, drawing, and arranging brightly colored disks into vertical and horizontal arrangements. The lessons of the higher level classrooms focused on the strong usage of manipulatives, such as brightly colored disks and familiar objects, including chestnuts and acorns. The lessons also involved whole classroom interaction through verbal logic games, and rhythmic clapping.
The following keys to Hungarian Math Standards are not much different to what the U.S. is trying in its own classrooms:
o Building solid math foundations through manipulated objects.
o Emphasis on mental math with comparatively late written math.
o Fast paced interactive games and sophisticated visual aids in a whole classroom setting.
o Lessons that build understanding in a logical way.
o Extensive teacher training and supervision.
Before I would be able to answer the question of whether or not we should model our systems of education after the top-performing countries, I would first need to gather answers to my own questions.
At what point does the apparent disconnect of what we see on the video and what is reported as sub-standard performing students occur? When and how are the students evaluated in these top performing schools? Where is the accountability in these top performing schools; does it lie in the hands of the teachers as it does in the U.S., or are parents and students held equally accountable? Do all children have the privilege of attending school in these countries, as in the U.S., or is it just the privileged few? Are the children fortunate enough to attend school geared on a certain educational track? And finally, how are these top-performing schools funded?
In conclusion, I am not convinced that our educational system is broken beyond repair. I feel that strengthening existing programs such as Head Start and early intervention programs would be a good first step. Once the children are in school, they would benefit from smaller classrooms, more access to manipulatives, and tutoring when necessary. Parent involvement and accountability is a must; it is not just the responsibility of the school district to educate its children. In a nut shell, it takes money.
sefrancis
October 19, 2008